Curse

Kira Sassan · Apr 14, 2006, 11:28 AM // 11:28

In Heroes Ascent, to get into a team to gain fame, you have to be R6+/R9+ or have a Guild who PvPs regularly. The problem lies when people who are R0-R5 have hardly any chance to get Fame because most of the guys with this rank are either new to PvP or IWAY abusers who don't know anything about PvP. Because of this, someone who really wants to make it in Heroes Ascent, or someone who is new to Guild Wars would attempt maybe for a day to get some Fame, and then quit PvP altogether. I've come across countless people who want to PvP, then when they try it, they quit PvP forever.

The problem in the current PvP game is that Fame is almost impossible to aquire if you're new to the PvP game (or new to the game in general)

The idea I have to improve, this, to make the PvP game more newbie-friendly is to add more entry points to Heroes Ascent, which also allow the players to aquire Fame by winning. For example, add three more arenas, the beginners arena, the intermediate arena and the higher arena.

The Beginners Arena would be beneficial for players who are Rank 0, Rank 1 and Rank 2 and they can form their 8-man teams and battle on eight different maps which are identical to the maps in Heroes Ascent (excluding the Hall of Heroes map). This way, the players who are new to PvP can gain experience of the maps, the PvP game and at the same time gain Fame to show for it. After a team wins at the last map (copy of Sacred Temples), they would be teleported to The Underworld in Heroes Ascent, much like a team who wins 10 in Random Arenas then gets pit against teams from the Team Arenas. Once a player reaches Rank 3 in the Beginner Areana, they can no longer gain Fame by fighting here. There is no Rank restriction as to who can fight in this Arena, but ONLY people who are Rank 0, Rank 1 and Rank 2 gain Fame by winning here.

The Intermediate Arena, would be identical to the Beginners Arena except it would be beneficial for players who are Ranked 3, 4 and 5. ie only they would get Fame by winning here. And like the Beginners Arena, it will have 8 maps after which a team wins at the copy of Sacred Temples, they get teleported to The Underworld in Heroes Ascent. Once again there are no Rank restrictions as to who can fight here, but ONLY people who are Rank 3, Rank 4 and Rank 5 gain Fame by winning here.

And the Higher Arena is exactly the same, but only beneficial to those Rank 6, Rank 7 and Rank 8.

For all these arenas, there is no final holding map so no one team can create a holding build, and then hope to hold on the final map to gain maximum Fame. The final map on all the Arenas is a copy of Sacred Temples, and after a team wins there, their next fight is against teams who form at Heroes Ascent to ultimately get to The Hall of Heroes.

Here's a crap picture to show how the different entry points work:

Let's face it, the PvP game is messed up, there's nothing at all for players who are new to PvP or Guild Wars here and something needs to be done to make the PvP game enjoyable for all. I believe that this idea would work wonders for Guild Wars and would encourage more people to PvP, and also get people who quit PvP because of its current state, to come back to what is one of the most enjoyable parts of the game.

mariano · Apr 14, 2006, 02:00 PM // 14:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kira Sassan

In Heroes Ascent, to get into a team to gain fame, you have to be R6+/R9+ or have a Guild who PvPs regularly.

I think it is an interesting suggestion, nevertheless, thinking in the game as a whole, I have to add that this suggestion should go together with an improved system of finding a suitable guild(*see note) and may be with changes in the other kinds of Arenas.

I have seen many times the suggestion of adding a Random Team buttom for HA in this forum. This makes me think, that most people do not seem, so much, to fear high level players, and teams which relay in a "team build", as just seem to wish to have a chance to play and to show their game.

It might be suggested, also, a half random way to make teams; like it seems, it is going to be, for Alliance Battles; for example, that a single player might enter to the HA missions, or that a team of 2~7 players might enter to the HA missions, adding the remaining 7~1 randomly.

And lastly, it may be suggested something which has some small similarity with what you write, but, a Random Arenas of 8v8, so that after some number of victories in a row, the team would go to HA.

*Note: In my view, the system of being invited to a guild is onesided and slow. I have suggested: a) join request option, b) social chat channel, c) some place or someway ingame to get information about i) guilds looking for members, or ii) players looking for guild. This last thing could be for finding a guild, analogous to what having an Auction House would be for trade.

Kira Sassan · Apr 20, 2006, 06:32 PM // 18:32

Adding a 'Guild search' feature is also something that could make the gameplay experience a lot better, but for the moment let's stick to the topic at hand

Currently, a complete PUG has absolutely no chance whatsoever against anything in HA, they'll go in, get destroyed repetitively and then either go IWAY, quit PvP or in the more extreme circumstances, rage quit GW.
By introducing new entry points which allow people at around the same Rank levels to form teams together would also mean that you'd be fighting against people in the same shoes as you, if you're R2 you don't have to fear coming up against a top 50 Guild, or an organised R9+ spike team, you'd be fighting against others who are also R0-2.
Also, because of the way Rank would be achieved with this method, rank would actually mean something, I'm not saying it will accurately reflect a players' skill, but it would show that a player has come up via the new system and therefore has more knowledge of what they are doing.

Players have reached Rank 12 gaining over 20,000 Fame, but also new players who have PvPed for days with random teams have left with maybe 2-3 fame, how are these players ever supposed to get to Rank 3, let alone Rank 12? Fame shouldn't be ridiculously hard to get for players who are new to the game, if anything, the current system is too unfriendly to new players who have come to GW and only benefits those who have PvP'd from the early stages of GW and have formed a HA Guild, or have lots of PvP friends because they used to PvP a lot back when every team was basically a PUG.

Recently one of my in-game friends wanted to get into PvP, I explained to him about the builds he would come up against and what builds he should run, after two days he pretty much gave up on PvP because he couldn't get into a decent team, and every team he did get into were completely random PUGs and got destroyed either at the Zaishen, or by an organised team at UW.

Give the guys who are new to PvP something to fight for, change the way HA is setup and allow different entry points so even if someone is new to the PvP game, they'd actually have a realistic challenge instead of getting frustrated to the point where they dropkick their PC through the wall.

Dougal Kronik · Apr 20, 2006, 07:08 PM // 19:08

Kira, I really like your ideas.

This breakdown would make it more appealing for players to start PvP. And the limits that anyone can play at any level but only those in the scale would actually receive the Fame is a very good idea.

Chillin-N-Killin · Apr 20, 2006, 07:56 PM // 19:56

that is the problem in a nut shell. I have played since day 1 (of release)PvE only I am just now getting into PvP (yes I am a PvP noob newbie whatever) but I spent 3 hours in there trying to find a group that would take me but alass no rank, no fame= no play. my guild is me and my wife I was in another guild but was all inmature kids (yes I am a old dude 36). How am i going to get fame and rank if I cant get in a PvP game? and no i aint quitting my guild to join 1 that will kick me out because i have a life, with wife and kid and can't be on all the time. A-net help us new PvP wannabe's

Zhou Feng · Apr 20, 2006, 08:26 PM // 20:26

I love this idea.

Im not sure how it would get implemented.

But a suggestion would be similar to how you cant access and arena once you are past a certain level. Maybe they could do that.

Rank 0 character tries to enter the intermediate or high class and a message pops up saying "You do not have sufficient rank to enter this threshold."

This will avoid higher rank people abusing the lower rank ones. And avoids lower ranks wasting the higher ranks time.

leeky baby · Apr 20, 2006, 08:32 PM // 20:32

what about guilds who have differnt rank people in them.. were would they play?

shardfenix · Apr 20, 2006, 08:52 PM // 20:52

I like the idea very much, but there can only be one hall of heroes at a time. You don't want to pit rank 0-2 groups against rank 9-11 after they beat sacred, do you?
This gives me a new idea for how fame is earned... thanks check out my thread about fame.

that red guy · Apr 20, 2006, 09:09 PM // 21:09

It is an interesting idea, but higher ranked people could still enter the low level heros and crush the teams even if they get nothing for it.
I will also say that getting into an unranked pug in heros ascent that isn't iway or some other flavor of the month is hard its defiantly not impossible. Look for groups that say you need ventrlio or team speak to join, don't refuse to reroll your character, bring what people want and ask people what build they want you to use most importantly when you get into the rare good pug say that you are adding them to your friends list and would like to group with them again.

shardfenix · Apr 20, 2006, 09:21 PM // 21:21

I agree with that red guy. Wow your name is cool to type.
Never let laziness or a voice program stop you from joining a gorup. I suggest to all new players that you download teamspeak (goteamspeak.com) and ventrilo (ventrilo.com) before trying out pvp. It makes the group more organized, and faster. Also, you cant do spike groups without voice.

If they want you to reroll a character, do it. It might be a really good group. Just advertise "rank X lfg, can roll (builds you do)"
Although i dont like it when people lie, it's ok to say youre rank 2 when you are actually not. 75 fame doesnt give the rank 2 players a right to kick you out. (until shortly after factions when they add new emotes)

If you get into a group that wins more than half the time, add them to your friends list and try to remake the group another dy, fixing the things that prevented you from winning more.

Back to the original topic. I think there should be ranked districts. You can only move to them if everyone in your group is at least that rank. (I would be more than happy to hang with the unranked people and help them out

)

Hamanu · Apr 20, 2006, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Personally I think the problems in HA go far deeper than simply the whole fame issue. HA itself almost negates half of the opint of pvp, which is the manoeuvre battle. Almost every match, down to Hoh itself by design ends up in a gigantic clusterRED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO. This allows very little room to manoeuvre and as such doesn't allow HA players to develop one of the most important parts of their pvp game. As such you see some very specific and successful builds that in other circumstances (read; gvg) would perform very poorly. What this means is that you can become a very good HA player and still have little to no understanding of the metagame or even how anything outside your chosen class really works. A lack of knowledge that is punished very severely in gvg.

As for the entire fame issue. I believe that the concept itself is fine, what makes it a problem are the aforementioned issues with the design of HA itself. My advice to a prospective pvp player would be to do these things at least;

Read up on builds and strategies that have worked. There are some very good match reports out there on top level matches, and if you can understand why those battles were won and lost you've already come a long way.

Watch observer mode. In fairness the conversation in those is pretty insipid, but you should be able to get an idea of what builds people run and why they're working.

Start with GVG, I can't stress that enough. That is what is going to teach you the skills you need to be a good pvper. You can come to HA later if you want, and if you're a good gvger you'll do fine.

It may come as a surprise, but you're not the only person in the same boat. What this means is that there are at least 8 other people out there who want to do the same thing you do. Find them, advertise here, in HA, even in RA and TA. When you find a good group of people start your own guild, I'd stay small; 8-12. Make some builds and practice together and you'll get much better much more quickly than any other way. Working as a team and anticipating your teammates is probably the most important skill out there, in any situation, and this is the best way to learn this. When you've worked together and played together, and you take that group to HA, guess what? You'll most likely be able to take the halls.

Good luck.

Edit; Damn filter...

Mr Fizzle · Apr 21, 2006, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Well. . . Its not a problem to get a group once your R3 or higher if you ask me.I make a spike,or balanced group R3 every other day if I can.I have a big friend's list and a few guildies come occasianly : ).Just use PUGS till you find some buddies you can constantly play with.

FRIENDS FTW Im almost r6

.

Zui · Apr 21, 2006, 05:01 AM // 05:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hamanu

Personally I think the problems in HA go far deeper than simply the whole fame issue.

That's for sure, it's the playstyle and the maps that support said style, along with the general attitude of most HA players that nothing can be run except the current fotms(which really have been the same thing for quite awhile now).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hamanu

You can come to HA later if you want, and if you're a good gvger you'll do fine.

That is, if you can either get your guild to do HA with you, friends who are good ect... If you don't have friends who like HA, or guildies who like HA, you're going to be more than likely forced to play IWAY, barring the rare occasion there's a guild group looking for a player with vent/ts that can roll what they're looking for, and the guild group doesn't care about your emote. GvG players honestly have a far better understanding of tactics, mechanics, and everything else than the average HA player(your r3/r6 W/? running around in full knights/plate/ascalon armor and swearing it stacks/is the best.. seriously though, look at your average r3+ or r6+ warrior at HA, then look at any GvG player in the top 500).

On topic... I'm not totaly opposed to the idea of this suggested fix, although I'm not sure how it would be implimented. The only thing that should be changed is lower ranked players should be able to play in any area they want to, or atleast make a global area where everyone can go. Otherwise you'll be cutting off HA/GvG guilds from playing with other members, and from playing with competition suited to them, and you must make it so that higher ranked players can't go play with lower ranked players in their respective "districts", even though this would create somthing of an issue since no lower ranked player would have the chance to analyze how a higher ranked team won ect..

In short this fix creates about as much a problem as it fixes.

Kira Sassan · Apr 21, 2006, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Something I should have stated in the first post, the different entry points I suggested are in addition to Heroes Ascent.
Meaning that if a Guild team, or a team with ranks ranging from 0-10 want to fight together and also gain fame from it, they can organise in Heroes Ascent, and not in the new arenas.

The proposed new arenas simply add a new entry point for people who are restricted from finding a decent team, or any team for that matter due to their rank/fame in order to learn and build their PvP game.

Heroes Ascent is broken, all the players with high Ranks keep on gaining Fame because they can get into organised PUGs and Guild/friend groups who know what they doing while the players with low or no Rank find it all but impossible to achieve anything.

Living Legend · Apr 21, 2006, 03:57 PM // 15:57

it's a decent idea but then whats the point of having hall of heroes, theres many many people in top guilds that aren't rank 9, just because your not rank 9 doesn't mean your not good, should the players that already got their rank the hard way be given this "new arena" because new players are trying to get into pvp. It seems that now that people are actually interested in pvp because they got bored of pve and they aren't used to high pace of pvp now, and they complain about it being to hard but why should ANET make it easier just because you started to try to get into, people that have been around have done there part on trying to get as much fame as possible through fame farming or just winning, we didnt have it this easy, why should it be any different for new players just because there now getting interested into it, the game has been out for almost a whole year and your now wanting to get into it...

Kira Sassan · Apr 21, 2006, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Living Legend

whats the point of having hall of heroes, theres many many people in top guilds that aren't rank 9, just because your not rank 9 doesn't mean your not good

I believe that anyone with a quarter of a brain knows that, the point I'm trying to get across is that if you're not R6+/R9+ you're going to find it next to impossible to get a decent team in Heroes Ascent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Living Legend

should the players that already got their rank the hard way be given this "new arena" because new players are trying to get into pvp.

That is just stupid, got fame the hard way? Oh you mean with spirit spamming (pre-nerf), smiting (pre-nerf), ranger spiking (pre-nerf), and IWAY (pre-nerf)... gg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Living Legend

It seems that now that people are actually interested in pvp because they got bored of pve and they aren't used to high pace of pvp now, and they complain about it being to hard but why should ANET make it easier just because you started to try to get into, people that have been around have done there part on trying to get as much fame as possible through fame farming or just winning, we didnt have it this easy,

I'm not saying that ArenaNet make PvP easier, I mean, how the hell would they accomplish that? I'm saying that the PvP game should be more friendly to new players, give the new PvPers something to fight for instead of getting steamrolled everytime they manage to get in HA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Living Legend

why should it be any different for new players just because there now getting interested into it, the game has been out for almost a whole year and your now wanting to get into it...

Ummm, yeah? Did you even read the original post, it's a possible solution aimed at making the PvP game more friendly to NEW PvP players. Judging by what you wrote, you're under the impression that only players who have had the game for a year should be allowed to PvP at the highest level, while anyone who got the game yesterday should spend the next five years grinding to get 180 Fame. They missed the complete PUG phase, they missed the Spirit Spamming and Smiting phases, they missed Ranger Spike and they missed IWAY, so farming fame is out of the question seeing as there is no FoTM anymore
Do you honestly expect a casual gamer who got Guild Wars yesterday to get anywhere near Rank 3 sometime within the next six months?

Count to Potato · Apr 21, 2006, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kira Sassan

In Heroes Ascent, to get into a team to gain fame, you have to be R6+/R9+ or have a Guild who PvPs regularly.

Dont forget R3 people!

dgb · Apr 21, 2006, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kira Sassan

That is just stupid, got fame the hard way? Oh you mean with spirit spamming (pre-nerf), smiting (pre-nerf), ranger spiking (pre-nerf), and IWAY (pre-nerf)... gg

This is just inane - to discount the efforts of those who didn't use FotM builds just because others did is stupid. I'm moving up the ranks and I've only ever played as a monk in HA - I don't run FotM. I did it the hard way - or do I not count?

Kira Sassan · Apr 21, 2006, 07:28 PM // 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

This is just inane - to discount the efforts of those who didn't use FotM builds just because others did is stupid. I'm moving up the ranks and I've only ever played as a monk in HA - I don't run FotM. I did it the hard way - or do I not count?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not discounting the people who gained their Fame by playing mainly with balanced teams, in fact I also have gained the majority of my Fame (about 80% of it) playing as a Monk in HA.
Look at the source of how (a lot of) fame is gained in HA, you can get it by repetitively playing with friends, with your Guild, or by playing the FoTM. In the past, the FoTM was used to farm fame and those who were around and were aware of it, gained a lot from doing so.

Ok, now let's take a look at players who are new to PvP, they can't get into teams because they have no knowledge of the maps or how they work, they don't have much knowledge of the builds used or what is effective, and also they may not have a wide variety of skills, upgrades and runes unlocked. As a PvP player, would you take someone like that into your team? If no, then how are players like that ever supposed to get into the PvP game? There needs to be something introduced to GW that will allow players who are new to PvP something that will encourage them to play it, learn it and enjoy it. And also get rewarded by doing so. I mean for example, a player can have everything unlocked and may have spent days in observer mode observing how people play in HA, but if that player has 0 Fame, what's his or her chances of competing at a high level at HA?
Because there is a Fame/Rank system in GW and people make teams according to their Rank, even if something is added to GW to accommodate the new PvP player, it has to reward them with Fame and Rank otherwise all the training in RA/TA, all the observing and all the researching won't mean anything.
With the idea I'm suggesting, it does just that and on top of that it cannot be farmed because once you hit that rank barrier for your arena you can no longer benefit (in terms of fame) from that arena and in order to gain more renown you have to step up to the next arena. Not only does it teach and reward the players, it gives the players a goal and a realistic challenge which would also gives them something to show for it.

In the Random Arenas if you win ten in a row, you get upgraded from an arena where random teams fight random teams, to an arena where your random team is pit against (mostly) organised teams. Why can't we also have that for Heroes Ascent? Instead of the random part, divide it by Rank, where you pick up teams in your own 'rank range' and if you perform well, you get pit against higher level teams in a bid to get to, and win at the Hall of Heroes.